Debate on Abortion
|Moderator: Kim / Pro-Life: Apolonio
/ Pro-Abortion: Jackie
Kim: Hello guys. We are going to discuss abortion today. Are you guys ready?
Apolonio: Yes, Iím all game.
Kim: Who would like to go first?
Apolonio: Jackie is the affirmative, that is, that she believes abortion is okay. So I guess she goes first.
Jackie: Who says Iím the affirmative? You affirm that abortion is wrong. So it can go either way.
Kim: Are we going to debate abortion or who is to go first?
Apolonio: Iíll go first. My arguments are easy. Murder is wrong. Abortion is murder. Therefore abortion is wrong.
Kim: Thatís it?
Apolonio: Thatís the basic argument. Jackie, do you agree that murder is wrong?
Jackie: Yes, but I donít think abortion is murder.
Apolonio: Why not?
Jackie: Because itís just a fetus. A fetus is not a human being. Actually, itís just a tissue.
Apolonio: Itís not just a tissue. It has 46 human chromosomes, itís a male or a female, and itís complete, meaning nothing else will be added to it, just growth and development.
Jackie: It canít breathe, it canít talk, it canít walk, and it canít live without the mother.
Apolonio: If Iím a mute, does it mean Iím not a human being?
Apolonio: What if I canít walk?
Jackie: Youíre still a human being. My point was that it canít live on its own and it cannot do the things we can do.
Apolonio: Itís the same thing when the baby is born. He is still dependent on the mother. He depends on her to give him food, to be cleaned, etc. We become less dependent when we grow. There are also others such as the paralyzed that cannot live on their own. That doesnít mean itís okay to murder them. When a baby depends on an incubator, that doesnít give us the right to murder him.
Jackie: But that thing is basically useless. You believe a zygote is a human being, but a zygote doesnít even have a brain, organs, or a nervous system.
Apolonio: So? A zygote can grow into you. It can grow as an adult.
Jackie: Potentiality does not mean actuality.
Apolonio: But it can grow into it naturally. Only a human being can grow into an adult human being. A fetal ape canít grow into an adult human being. Only a human being can. You have to be a human being to have a brain, organ, and a nervous system. So it IS a human being. If it were a human being, then killing it would be murder.
Jackie: So thatís it? You donít care about what the mother feels?
Apolonio: I do. Thatís why I am pro-life. Havenít you heard of testimonies of mothers after abortion? It basically kills them.
Jackie: What are you talking about?
Apolonio: Exactly. You donít even know of mothers who have had abortion that needs healing. They have emotional problems after abortion. You donít even know that abortion has a lot of side effects.
Jackie: Seriously, what are you talking about?
Apolonio: Iím talking about the side effects of abortion. You donít know these things because the media and schools donít tell you.
Jackie: So youíre complaining about the media and schools?
Apolonio: Yes. Iím complaining with sufficient reasons. Schools are made so that teachers actually TEACH you things. But what do they do? They forget about morality. I know lots of teachers who would not even let the class debate on abortion because she ďfeelsĒ itís overdone. But she would not think condemning Hitler, rape, slavery, and incest is overdone. What a total hypocrisy. And the media doesnít even want to show a picture of an aborted child, but would show any immoral things they can find.
Kim: Thatís an interesting view Apolonio, but we are supposed to debate abortion itself.
Apolonio: Weíre not done yet? I thought I already proved that abortion is murder.
Jackie: No you havenít. You ďmayĒ have proven that a zygote or a fetus is a human being, but there are also other factors, such as a womanís privacy and right.
Apolonio: You mean a womanís right to murder?
Jackie: No, a womanís right to give birth. No one should force her to give birth. Itís her body.
Apolonio: A woman forced herself into having birth. No one forced her to have sex. And what weíre doing is condemning her because abortion is murder. We are forcing her not to murder.
Jackie: Itís her body. She can do whatever she wants. The government shouldnít tell her what to do.
Apolonio: Itís my body, but the government tells me not to smoke pot right? Itís my body but people tell me to stop drinking and driving.
Jackie: First of all, drugs are another controversial issue. Second, if you drink and drive, you affect other people. You might kill someone else.
Apolonio: But thatís what abortion is. It murders a person. It also affects other people, such as a pro-life father. Itís the fatherís baby too. He should have a say.
Jackie: Itís the womanís body, not the fatherís.
Apolonio: A zygote or a fetus is not the womanís body. Itís an entirely different person.
Jackie: Itís a different person according to you.
Apolonio: No, itís a different person biologically, and objectively. If itís not a person, when does it become a person?
Jackie: When itís born. When it doesnít depend on the womanís body.
Apolonio: Okay, so when a doctor is doing a c-section, and cuts open the stomach, that thing is not a person? Itís not a person until the doctor actually picks up the child above the stomach and cuts the umbilical cord?
Jackie: But that child is already fully-grown.
Apolonio: So? Abortion is legal even though it is 9 months old.
Jackie: Some may say that abortion is wrong when the baby is 7-9 months old. It may depend on age.
Apolonio: Can I murder a premature baby?
Jackie: No, because itís already born.
Apolonio: So youíre basing your judgment on the location of the baby? Do you know how stupid that sounds?
Jackie: Well, who gave you the right to impose your values on someone else? Whatís right for you is not right for someone else.
Apolonio: Can I murder your grandmother? To me, thatís not wrong.
Jackie: Okay, now who is sounding stupid?
Apolonio: You are. You are the one who says morality is subjective. If morality is subjective, then you canít condemn any actions, including the holocaust. And we can debate on moral relativism, but I can guarantee you that you wonít win that debate either.
Kim: No debating moral relativism today.
Jackie: Apolonio, itís easy for you to condemn abortion. You are not even a woman. You donít know how it feels to be pregnant.
Apolonio: Do I need to be a slave or a slave owner in order to condemn slavery? Of course not. The North condemned slavery when they didnít have slavery. The law back then also said that slavery was okay. That black people were just property, but the North still condemned it because they had a higher standard to condemn the Dred Scott decision, which is the moral law. And I hold to the moral law, that is, that murder is wrong; against the Roe vs Wade decision.
Jackie: What if abortion is the only choice of the mother?
Apolonio: What do you mean the only choice? If she doesnít want the child, she can give it up for adoption.
Jackie: Have you been in reality lately? Do you know how many foster homes we have? Do you know how much unwanted children we have? How many adoptions have you had?
Apolonio: That still does not give us the right to murder babies. Itís just illogical to conclude that.
Jackie: What about in cases like rape or incest?
Apolonio: Is it still murder? Yes. Therefore itís still wrong.
Jackie: How would you feel if someone in your family is forced to have a child?
Apolonio: I might feel bad, but I donít make my judgments from my feelings. I would suggest adoption if she doesnít want the child. Itís better than murdering the baby.
Jackie: Itís only you that says itís a baby for goodness sake.
Apolonio: If itís not a baby, then what is it?
Jackie: Just a part of a motherís body.
Apolonio: A person does not have 4 eyes, 4 ears, 2 noses, and 2 mouths. So if a baby is a boy, then the mother has a penis too? (Peter Kreeft)
Jackie: Very funny.
Apolonio: Actually, itís stupid. Your logic is terrible.
Kim: I think we exhausted this enough for today.
Apolonio: I disagree.
Kim: Well, we can debate this anytime. Itís just that I have to go. Let me ask a question. Jackie, why is being Pro-Abortion, or Pro-Choice important to you?
Jackie: Because if the government makes abortion illegal, the government takes away the freedom of a woman. Every woman should stick for each other. Every woman should have the right to do what is right for her. Society has discriminated women enough. We should not discriminate them again.
Kim: Okay. Apolonio, why is being Pro-Life important?
Apolonio: First, let me address some of what Jackie has said. First, if society has discriminated against women, donít you think it wouldíve taken them more than 5000 years to protest against this ďdiscriminationĒ? The point is that women were more humble then. Women have lost that virtue. Itís sick how abortion, feminism to be more exact, looks down upon mothers and virgins. If they didnít look down upon them, we wouldnít have this holocaust. They like to praise women who do a manís work and look down on women who stay home and take care of the child.
The fact is that being a mother is the most beautiful thing you can be. Every woman should be AGAINST abortion. A mother always sees the beauty of a human being more than the man. Itís because a woman is made to be a mother, either literally or spiritually. She has the arms to hold a baby. It sickens me how this ďfeminismĒ crap brainwashed women. The truth is that there is nothing feminine about feminism. Feminism is masculinized womanhood. Abortion is against womanhood. What we need is good philosophy on women, and that is, to get back to the virtues that women once had. They should embrace meekness, love life, and protect life. This is why I am pro-life, because I embrace what I have learned from true women, which are mothers.
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